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The Transcript

Lessons on Business and Life from the Zen Master of Marketing

Voiceover: Rainmaker FM.

You’re listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth ongoing instructional academy plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce, that’s Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to the Digital Entrepreneur, the show where digital entrepreneurs share their stories and the lessons they’ve learned so we can all be better in our online pursuits. I’m your host Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital and this is episode number 37. This episode of the Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. I will tell you more about this complete solution for digital marketing and sales later, but you can check it out and take a free spin for yourself at Rainmaker.FM/Platform, that’s Rainmaker.FM/Platform.

On this week’s episode I have a guest that’s been honored at both the White House and the United Nations as one of the top one hundred young entrepreneurs in the country. She is a visionary strategist for the digital age, a web and TV personality, a best selling author, and the award winning CEO of the Marketing Zen Group, a global online marketing and digital PR company that helps turn successful companies into industry leaders. She helps brands reach the next level by leveraging digital opportunities to drive meaningful results. She is Shama Hyder, AKA the zen master of marketing and she is a digital entrepreneur. Shama, welcome to the Digital Entrepreneur. It is wonderful to have you on the show.

Shama Hyder: It’s a pleasure to be here. Thank you so much for having me.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, you’re an award winning entrepreneur, you’ve shared the stage with presidents. We appreciate you taking the time to join us and lend some insight on your path as an entrepreneur.

Shama Hyder: This is my favorite topic so a pleasure.

Why She Strives to Have a Student Mindset (No Matter What)

Jerod Morris: Very good, very good. Let’s start out where we always start out with our guests. I’ve always believed that the number one benefit of digital entrepreneurship is freedom. The freedom to choose your projects and to chart your course and ultimately the freedom to change your life and your family’s life for the better. What is the biggest benefit that you have derived from being a digital entrepreneur?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I would say definitely the freedom has been a huge part but also just the ability to make a contribution without boundaries or without limits. Really, I think as an entrepreneur it’s the limits that you put on yourself. I think, for me, that’s a very gratifying part of it.

Jerod Morris: All right, so let’s go back. Take me back to before you became a digital entrepreneur. What were you doing and what was missing that led you to want to make a change?

Shama Hyder: Well, I was in school, so I think, unlike a lot of people who sort of go from the career world, I started the company right out of school. I think, just to rewind slightly back, I finished school and I thought that I would go get a job, which is what you’re told you’re supposed to do and whatnot except for me my industry didn’t exist and the idea of social media, social media marketing is just so new. The industry really, honestly, did not exist.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Now, had you always been an entrepreneur growing up, like is this something that was just in your blood that you had always done?

Shama Hyder: I think so. I’ve always been entrepreneurial, and so … Both my parents are entrepreneurs and, but I think that actually made me not want to do it as much. Because I saw them, and we have very different styles of entrepreneurship, I can put it that way. I guess I’d only seen one facet of that but yeah, I think I’ve always been very entrepreneurial and I’ve always enjoyed the idea of having my own rules and my own way to contribute to society in a way that’s not limited by anyone else.

The Lessons She Took From Her Parents (that You Can Implement Too)

Jerod Morris: You mentioned that you have different styles. How would you describe the differences in your styles?

Shama Hyder: I think my parents with their entrepreneurship, they were also very spontaneous in a lot of ways. I think some of the challenges I saw them deal with was more towards not being as organized. I’m more type A than they are.

Jerod Morris: How did you come by that? Have you just always been that way?

Shama Hyder: I think when you grow up with parents who are not type A it forces you to be type A and so yeah, I think in some ways, to make up for that, even as a kid … Yeah, so I think I got the best of both worlds in many ways.

Jerod Morris: Can you walk us through how your business is organized, because obviously you have Zen Marketing, so you have a marketing agency and you’re taking clients. Then you also are a business unto yourself with your speaking and with the books that you’ve written, how do you keep everything organized and manage your priorities?

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I think that’s exactly it, it’s priorities, it’s knowing what are the absolute things I have to accomplish today and then everything else revolves around that.

Jerod Morris: What kind of systems do you have for helping you do that and make those tough decisions?

Shama Hyder: I want to say pen and paper is sometimes the best. You think it’s tools but it’s not, right. You can have tools that help you focus or support your productivity but at the end of the day it’s really you rolling up your sleeves and saying, This is what I ve got to do. I think certain things that do help, like there is a tool I use that’s like a thirty minute timer on my phone and it’s great because I’ll do … I think it’s also known as the Pomodoro effect where you take, you focus on something for thirty minutes and you go do something else. That certainly helps and try to focus in on things that need me. But of course you only work in such, my schedule, there’s not always a set schedule because the media might call and they might be doing a story on something and they want me in or a client says Oh, we’ve got this great opportunity, can we brainstorm? In so many ways, yes I can have a framework for my schedule, but I have to stay flexible as well.

Jerod Morris: What kind of role have some of the digital products that you’ve created like the eBooks, what kind of role have those played in the growth of your business?

Shama Hyder: Yes, well I ve got two books out in bookstores. One is called The Zen of Social Media Marketing, which is now in its fourth edition and Momentum, my second book, which is about marketing in the digital age that just came out a couple of months ago. And both have been, say, pretty crucial in helping with business development and building a thought leadership platform, and both of them came about from market demand. I wrote The Zen when people really there were no books on social media, where people really needed some insight on what it meant to do, to use Facebook or to use these platforms and tools for business. Being able to create something based on market demand has always, I think, been a key to success.

How to Maintain a Trajectory of Success

Jerod Morris: One trend that we have seen is a lot of people who are in client work will end up starting another portion of their business around digital products, whether it’s courses or membership sites. Do you have any plans to do anything like that or are you going to stay on the same trajectory that you’ve been on?

Shama Hyder: I think there’s always possibility. For me, what’s more important is, How do you stay relevant, right, to your audience, and how do you constantly give them something they want? If that looks like digital products, then it will be digital products. But, I’ve never been one to say, Okay, this is the way we’re going to go and then everything else gets forced around it. It’s much more, Let’s keep listening to the audience. Let’s see where our clients want. Let’s see what the audience is asking for, and then create around that.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Shama, tell me about the milestone or moment in your career as an entrepreneur that you’re the most proud of.

Shama Hyder: One moment that I think that for me was really sort of a personal like, Oh, wow, moment was visiting a client’s Christmas party A client invited us to a Christmas party, we’d been working with them for two years at this point and we were handling all their digital marketing and attending their Christmas party from the year prior, it had seemed like the company had tripled. All these people and their families and the CEO, I remember was talking to him and he said yeah, We’ve grown so much with your help in the last two years. These are all the people that we’ve now been able to hire.

What was great about that was just to know, sometimes I think that you do, you see the impact on bottom lines, but you don’t see the full societal human impact, right? How we were helping with the marketing and helping this company grow, they in turn were able to hire these people and then, of course, there were these kids and families that were impacted by that. For me, that was a really touching moment in terms of what we do and the effect it really has.

Jerod Morris: Boy, that had to be just a great moment. To just see there and see, yeah, the impact that you had and the help on real people, like you said, because sometimes we can lose sight of that fact. That had to be great.

Shama Hyder: Totally, and it was. And we’ve had moments like that and I’ve had moments like that, being able to see how what we do impacts people.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. All right, let’s take a quick break. When we come back I will ask Shama about the most humbling moment that she has had as digital entrepreneur.

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How She Finds Humbling Moments Every Day and is Always Learning Something New

Jerod Morris: All right, so Shama, tell me about the most humbling moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur, and most importantly, what you learned from it?

Shama Hyder: I think I have humbling moments everyday, honestly. I don’t know, really it’s not like one like Oh my God, I was so humbled, but everyday I think I learn something new and for me it’s a mindset, right, to always stay in that kind of student mindset of there’s … I feel like things make you humble when you get to a certain point or like, does that make sense?

Jerod Morris: Totally.

Shama Hyder: Right, like there’s some place for you to fall from? Or there’s some place to be like Oh wow, I really thought I was going in one direction and this opened my eyes. I think I always come from that perspective where I’m a student. I learn so much from my employees all the time because, let’s face it, I’m younger than all of them, most of them. For me it’s always been a process of being a student and learning so I don’t know if there’s one experience that I would say, I was really humbled by it. I’ll say that everyday there’s at least ten moments in a day where I’m like, Oh, well I don’t know it all, good thing I didn’t think I knew it all.

Jerod Morris: I think that’s probably an indication of why you’ve been successful because obviously those moments of humility are also paths for learning and opportunities to learn. I think the fact that you view it that way is a great sign for your continued growth, because that’s what will keep you learning and growing, so that’s great.

Shama Hyder: Thank you, I certainly think having a student mindset no matter what you’re doing is the way to go. You know, and when the clients you can always tell the difference from the clients who are, I love that our clients are like this, they want to learn. They want to grow. They’re curious, and I have a lot respect for curiosity. I think it keeps you from ever thinking that you know it all, because the moment you do I think is when you have that really humbling moment.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I just prefer to always keep myself in that mode.

One Word that Sums Up Her Status of Business Today

Jerod Morris: Yeah, absolutely. Let’s fast forward to now. What is the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today?

Shama Hyder: Growing. I mean, really, it’s growing. And maybe, you know what would be fair, I would say, if I was going to be really specific, I’d say momentum, which is the name of my second book. I think part of me writing that and choosing that name was because I feel like, as a company, we have a lot of momentum right now. We’re one of the top social media digital PR agencies in the country, if not in the world, in terms of just being how early we started on to this path. I’m really excited with how much momentum we have and where things are going.

Shama s Biggest Recurring Pain Point Right Now

Jerod Morris: Very cool. What is your biggest recurring pain point as an entrepreneur right now?

Shama Hyder: I would say a reoccurring pain point, and this is just something is constantly, especially in our industry, keeping up. To be totally honest that’s a challenge for anybody in this industry, but it really is when you’re looking at things and you’re saying, What changed while we were sleeping? That’s the joke at the office, right?

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I think and it’s a challenge I love, but it is definitely a challenge to be able to keep you and to know what’s changing, how do we … We have to stay a step ahead for our clients. To stay relevant is the only way that we’re going to be useful to them.

Jerod Morris: How do you do that with so much information out there? How do you make sure that you’re getting the right information and finding out what you need to stay relevant?

Shama Hyder: I think, at this point, I’m very lucky that because I’m an investor in things and I’m, I write for multiple columns and I do a lot of media, that things find me, which is a great place to be.

Jerod Morris: Yeah.

Shama Hyder: I think that’s a nice thing is that I’m able to get sort of what I would say is the early scoop or the insider, the early invites and things to know what’s new.

Jerod Morris: That’s good.

Shama Hyder: Or what’s around the bend, yeah.

The Most Satisfying Part of Her Job

Jerod Morris: You mentioned earlier how rewarding it was to be at that Christmas party and see the impact that your work was able to have on real people, on families, I’m curious what element of your work on a daily basis gives you the most satisfaction? Like the actual just getting down, doing the work, what part of it do you enjoy the most?

Shama Hyder: For me, it’s honestly one of my favorite parts, is the strategic part, working with our clients, coming up with campaign ideas, talking with the team, figuring out how we’re going to help our clients move the needle, whether it’s with their social media campaigns or influence their marketing or digital PR campaign we’re launching. Like, these are all the things that really get me excited at the end of the day.

One Recommended Tool

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Let’s open up your toolbox if we can, and I’m curious what is one technology tool that contributes the most to your success as an entrepreneur? I know you mentioned earlier the app that you have that helps you keep track of your time and keeps track of your priorities. Are there any other technology tools that really stand out as helping contribute?

Shama Hyder: I’m a big fan of Slack. We use that. It’s a communication tool, which I’m a huge fan of that. Just allows me to keep in touch with our team. Our team is all over the US. Our clients are global. We have clients from Lithuania to Hong Kong, so definitely a huge plus in that way.

Non-Tech Ways to Keep Yourself Grounded

Jerod Morris: In addition to pen and paper, which you mentioned earlier, are there any non-technology tools that contribute the most, that help you out?

Shama Hyder: Non-technology tools aside from pen and paper, I would say that I have some favorite apps, things like that but you know my dogs, they’re pretty non-tech. They’re great because they remind you what life is really about.

Jerod Morris: Exactly, exactly. That s why I like asking that question.

Shama Hyder: It’s not Instagram Stories.

Jerod Morris: Right, right. No, that’s wonderful. Okay, so earlier I asked you what’s the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today. You said growing and momentum, we accept both of those.

Shama Hyder: Okay.

Jerod Morris: When we talk again in a year, what would you want that one word to be?

Shama Hyder: Wow, I think that would be a good word. Why not aim high, right?

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What will it take to get there for you?

Shama Hyder: I think just doing what we’re doing. I think that’s the path we’re on. I’m really excited about how we’ve grown and we don’t do any outbound marketing. Everyone who works with us comes through client referrals or they come through our own inbound efforts and that’s really, to me, that’s really powerful.

Jerod Morris: That’s a good spot to be in.

Shama Hyder: Yeah, I’m grateful for it, yes.

Rapid-Fire Question Time

Jerod Morris: Yes. So I have a few rapid-fire questions to close out. Are you ready?

Shama Hyder: Yes.

Jerod Morris: If you could have every person who will ever work with you or for you, read one book, what would it be?

Shama Hyder: Shoot, I know this is going to sound like an unfair question or an unfair answer perhaps but honestly it would be The Zen of Social Media Marketing and we do. We ask people to read it because so much of that is my philosophy. It’s the company philosophy, so in some ways it is like understanding what we’re about and how, what our perspective and approach is on digital marketing.

Jerod Morris: That’s a good way to make sure everybody understands that, and understands the mindset and culture that you’re trying to create, so I think that’s a very fair answer.

Shama Hyder: Exactly. And it helps when someone comes in when we’re hiring and they’ve read the book. To me it’s like, Okay they’re a step ahead. They are already familiar with this. Like, they know what we’re about to some degree.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, so memo to anybody looking to get a job: read the book. If you could have a 30 minute Skype call to discuss your business with anyone tomorrow, who would it be?

Shama Hyder: I don’t think that’s funny because it’s not … I feel like the people who work with us find us so I don’t know who I’d want to be able to talk to. Like totally, honestly, I think it would be the person that is really interested in working with us. Like that would be where my interest is.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

Shama Hyder: That’s the person I’d want to talk to.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What is the one email newsletter that you can’t do without?

Shama Hyder: Boy, there’s so many, I like my Quora Digest. The digest I get from Quora.com, that’s like the questions people are asking and I find myself looking on it often, so, yeah.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, Quora has some great stuff.

Shama Hyder: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: What non-book piece of art had the biggest influence on you as an entrepreneur?

Shama Hyder: You know, there’s a really cool sculpture at Burning Man. I don’t know if people have seen it but it’s two … it’s kind of a wire frame of two people who are arguing and they’ve got their backs to each other but within that wire frame you can see the children within each other and they’re facing each other trying to find a solution. I always think that’s touching, like regardless of where we are as adults or we’re in our kind of cages you know, inside it makes like the soul within salutes the other souls that it recognizes. I think that’s a really moving piece of art.

Jerod Morris: That’s great. That’s a great answer. What productivity hack has had the biggest impact on your ability to get more meaningful work done?

Shama Hyder: Close out browser windows. I mean honestly it’s amazing how much we’ll get done when you focus on one thing at a time and you don’t have multiple, I mean just me closing out browser windows has been huge.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it’s amazing how those can just accumulate. You don’t even realize it.

Shama Hyder: Well, such small things, and the other day I learned an interesting hack which I think is great. For people who play on their phones a lot or find that to be kind of, where they keep going back. Turning your screen to be a grayscale. You can do that on the iPhone, so everything’s grayed out, the colors go away and stuff and you find that you’re just, you want to play with it less, which I think in some ways can be a good thing.

Jerod Morris: That’s interesting.

Shama Hyder: Yeah.

Jerod Morris: I might have to try that. Shama, what’s the best way for someone who is inspired by today’s discussion to get in touch with you or to get more from you?

Shama Hyder: Certainly we’ve got two sites, MarketingZen.com and then ShamaHyder.com, both the sites have tons of content so if this is the type of content that you’re interested in and especially marketing, those are the places to go.

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Well Shama, thank you so much for joining us. Good luck getting to wow over the next year, hope you get there and yeah, really appreciate your time and insight.

Shama Hyder: Thanks so much. Pleasure to be here.

Jerod Morris: And that concludes this week’s episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. My thanks as always to Toby Lyles and our production team along with Caroline Early and Will Dewitt for helping to make this episode possible. My thanks to Shama Hyder for taking the time to join me for this discussion. I really appreciated her insight. It was great to get to talk with her and I’m sure you feel the same, and of course my thanks to you for being here and for listening. I always appreciate your attention and your support on the Digital Entrepreneur. If you ever have any questions, comments, thoughts, or anything, or just want to connect send me a tweet @jerodmorris. I always love hearing from you, and we’ll be back next week for another brand new episode of the Digital Entrepreneur. Take care.

The Transcript

Just Because You Can, Doesn’t Mean You Should (Plus Other Life Lessons from Seth Spears)

Voiceover: Rainmaker.FM. You are listening to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show for folks who want to discover smarter ways to create and sell profitable digital goods and services. This podcast is a production of Digital Commerce Institute, the place to be for digital entrepreneurs. DCI features an in-depth, ongoing instructional academy, plus a live education and networking summit where entrepreneurs from across the globe meet in person. For more information, go to Rainmaker.FM/DigitalCommerce.

Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Digital Entrepreneur, the show where digital entrepreneurs share their stories and the lessons they’ve learned so that we can all be better in our online pursuits. I am your host, Jerod Morris, the VP of marketing for Rainmaker Digital, and this is episode No. 36.

This episode of The Digital Entrepreneur is brought to you by the Rainmaker Platform. I will tell you more about this complete solution for digital marketing and sales later, but you can check it out and take a free spin for yourself at Rainmaker.FM/Platform.

On this week’s episode, I have a guest who’s been obsessed with quality from a young age. Seriously, he is crazy about quality. If it’s not the best, he won’t have it. He got his start in digital entrepreneurship in 2009 when he founded his own one-man digital marketing shop that has now grown into a small boutique agency of employees and contractors serving dozens of clients around the world.

He specializes in helping small business owners and bloggers who are crazy-passionate about their area of expertise take their business to the next level by creating a strategy for long-term success. He is Seth Spears, and he is a digital entrepreneur.

Seth, welcome to The Digital Entrepreneur. It’s great to have you on the show.

Seth Spears: Hey, Jerod, thanks for having me.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, for sure. This will be really good. It was great seeing you at Digital Commerce Summit. Glad you were able to make it out there.

Seth Spears: Yes, I had a great time.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, it was good. Let’s hope in here, Seth. I’ve always believed that the number one benefit of digital entrepreneurship is freedom. I think that’s what a lot of people feel that it is — the freedom to choose your projects, to chart your course, and ultimately, the freedom to change your life and your family’s life for the better. What is the biggest benefit that you have derived from being a digital entrepreneur?

Why Seth Loves the Balance Freedom Brings to Keep Him Centered and Focused

Seth Spears: I would completely agree with that statement as far as freedom. Especially the time freedom. Some people, they have monetary freedom where they make a lot of money, but they don’t have any time to enjoy it. They’re a slave to their desk, their office, or wherever. They’ve got to be there 24/7. When I think of that, I think of attorneys or doctors.

They’re high paid professionals, but they’re completely reliant upon being there and doing the work, so they don’t have the time to spend with family and friends, travel, and do the things that they enjoy. So I completely agree that having that time freedom and being able to work either in an office or coffee shop or at home or traveling is definitely the biggest benefit to being a digital entrepreneur.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, there’s certainly something admirable about putting in tons of hours and doing the work, but it does kind of lead to the question “what’s it all for?” if you don’t have the time to spend it with the people that you care about most and doing the things that you love doing the most.

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. That’s something that I’ve thought about a lot, especially over the past six months or so because I’ve certainly put in a lot of hours over the past few years as far as just work on either my own business or the clients’, et cetera. No stranger to the hard work and putting in lots of hours. But then at the end of the day, it’s, “How much work do you actually want to do?”

You get to a certain point where you’re like, “I can continue to grow this. I can continue to push and make more and make it bigger and better, but then why? Why am I doing this? Why am I pushing so much if I’m not using either the money or the time, et cetera, to spend time with my family, do things that I enjoy, or hang out with friends?”

I think it’s all part of finding a balance there. Both of them have their time and their place because, on the flip side of that, if you just spend all your time just doing what you enjoy, well, then you’re not going to be very motivated. You’re going to be kind of lazy. That’s great and all, but at the end of the day, I think you got to have some balance. That keeps us centered and focused.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree. Balance is definitely the key.

Let’s go back. Take me back before you became a digital entrepreneur. What were you doing, and what was missing that lead you to want to make a change?

How Seth Used Just-In-Time Learning and a Strong Work Ethic to Go From ‘Miserable’ to Pursuing His Life Dreams

Seth Spears: Great question. Back in 2009, I was working for a small college in Nashville, Tennessee. I was the Assistant Director of Admissions, so basically recruiting students, handling paperwork, traveling to college fairs, and all kinds of stuff like that. I was miserable. I hated it.

When I was in college I always had this expectation that I was going to major in business. I was going to graduate. I was going to meet the girl of my dreams, get married, have kids, start my own business, and sail off into the sunset and live happily ever after.

Jerod Morris: You had it all mapped out.

Seth Spears: Yeah, except that didn’t actually happen. It’s kind of happened now, but not exactly in the timing or the way that I was hoping for or expecting it to. I graduated college, bummed around for about a year, did some nonprofit mission work and stuff, waited tables and bartended, then went to work for this college. Got married, started having kids, but I was miserable in the job that I had.

I always had entrepreneurial leanings. I always had a really strong work ethic, worked a lot, and was always doing something on the side. I dabbled in some real estate investing. I tried some little side ventures here and there, but nothing ever seemed to work.

I basically came to a point … we had a new administration at the college, and it came to a head. I said, “You know, it’s either me or them. Since they’re not going anywhere, I’m going to have to go somewhere and make a decision to do something else.”

Now on the side, I had a little side hustle going. I was doing some independent collegiate consulting for homeschool students, helping them to prepare for college. I saw it as an under-served market, so I was doing a little bit of consulting on the side for them. I was homeschooled in high school, so I understood what it took to get in to college — and also, having the administrative side working for a university, I knew what it took to get it.

I began doing that. That was fall of 2009. During that time, as I was leaving, I realized that, “Well, I’ve got to market myself to get myself out there, to get more clients, and to create content and use social media.” Then realized I need a website. “Somebody’s got to be able to find my website, so I’m going to have to learn how to rank that in the search engines, use social media to promote it, and all of that.”

It was a really steep learning curve. I have a marketing degree, but what I came to realize was that that degree was worthless because everything has changed so much. All those theories as far as product price, place, promotion, and all that stuff, it wasn’t really relevant to what I was trying to do as far as market myself and the content that I was producing.

I basically went on a journey to learn as much as I could about digital marketing. I bought some courses, and I read as many blogs, articles, and things as I could, just to really teach myself. During that process, I discovered WordPress, StudioPress and the Genesis Framework, and started teaching myself website design.

As I begin doing that, I really enjoyed it. I like the creative side. There was a really steep learning curve for me, though, trying to figure out what FTP was. I was like, “I have no idea. I don’t understand.” It’s funny to think back now. That wasn’t that long ago. It was 2009 I guess. One thing basically led to another, and I began building out my own website.

Then some family and friends were starting businesses, and they asked for some help because they knew that I was into marketing and technology. I was building a couple here or there, one for myself and some other people, so I did. Then I began to get a couple clients, asking them to help, and I was like, “Huh, this is interesting. I actually really enjoy this. I don’t even like the collegiate consulting site, so why don’t we just kind of pivot and roll it into marketing? That’s what my degree is, and I can kind of do that.”

That’s where Spears Marketing was born. That was in 2010 basically. Then began doing a lot of website design and getting into social media marketing, search engine optimization, and that whole game.

Jerod Morris: It sounds like there was never really a grand plan for Spears Marketing and where you’re at now. It was almost just like one step led to the next, and it all sounds very logical as you explain it. Did it feel like a logical progression as you were going?

The Inherent Opportunities of ‘Flying by the Seat of Your Pants’

Seth Spears: I’ve never thought of it like that. I felt like I was flying by the seat of my pants for the most part.

Jerod Morris: It’s easy to put the pieces together in retrospect, and that’s kind of what I’m wondering. Did it feel like that as you were going through it?

Seth Spears: I don’t think so. It’s hard to take myself back there and feel the feelings as far as what I thought. I just saw an opportunity. I’ve always really enjoyed the study of economics and looking at the market and where opportunity lies. I was definitely in the right place at the right time as far as getting into WordPress and the whole digital marketing side because it was so new. It still probably is, but granted, there’s a lot more noise, traffic, and competition now.

Looking back, it does feel kind of like a natural progression, but at the time, I had to learn what I thought that I needed in order for my own business and then for clients. That’s how things really grew — working with a few clients here or there, just helping them with whatever they needed, teaching myself, and learning and growing from there.

Jerod Morris: Tell me about the milestone, or the moment, in your career as a digital entrepreneur that you’re the most proud of.

The Pride That Comes with Realizing the Difference You’re Making for Clients

Seth Spears: Over the years, I’ve had a lot of success working with several different clients and helping them to improve their traffic and search rankings and their growth, income, and revenue. A year or so ago, I looked back at statistics, the traffic statistics for pretty much every client. And those that actually followed the recommendations that I made — and this would include a website redesign, improved content, some search engine tweaks, and things like that — I had seen, on average, about a 30 percent increase in traffic for the clients.

Jerod Morris: Wow.

Seth Spears: That made me really happy. Just seeing the improvement that the clients would make because that was directly influencing their bottom line. They’re making more money. They’re having more success, and I was really proud of that.

Jerod Morris: That had to be a moment of real pride. Is that something now that for prospective clients that you will tell them? Kind of slip in there like, “Hey, clients who follow our recommendation are seeing 30 percent increases over the ones who do not.”

Seth Spears: I wouldn’t say still because I think the game has changed so much, and there’s so much more competition. Yeah, there were things that we were doing, and still do, that cause you to see a lot of growth. At the same time, I feel like I was on the cutting edge, but everything has caught up so much.

There’s so much noise just in the online space. The competition is a lot greater. Google’s in a state of flux. Social media — just the reach that we used to be able to get on social media — it’s not the same now. Now it’s pay to play. I still think there’s huge opportunity if you’re willing to throw a lot more money at it than before.

Because I always focus on the organic side, but I’m slowly beginning to transition and realize that the paid side is probably where the biggest bang for your buck is right now — just because it’s so much more pay to play.

Jerod Morris: Which, I suppose, was always the inevitable outcome of social media.

Seth Spears: I guess. It’s unfortunate that that’s what it is, but I guess that’s just the nature of markets, you know?

Jerod Morris: Yeah. All right, we’ll take a quick break. When we come back, I’m going to ask Seth about his most humbling moment as a digital entrepreneur.

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Now, back to my interview with Seth Spears.

All right. Seth, tell me about the most humbling moment in your career as a digital entrepreneur thus far and, most importantly, what you learned from it.

Seth’s Advice on Just Because You Can Do Something, Doesn’t Mean That You Should

Seth Spears: Probably when I realized that I took on a client — it was a good sized project — and then I had to fire them about a week into the project, realizing that it wasn’t a good fit, that they were very needy and high maintenance. The amount of handholding that they needed, myself and my team would not be able to provide that.

It made me take a step back and realize that I needed to improve my processes as far as onboarding and do a better job of due diligence to make sure that I was only taking on clients that were a good fit. Just because there was an opportunity to make a lot of money there, if it’s not a good fit, it’s not worth it.

I’d say that was definitely the most humbling and also one of the biggest lessons that I learned in business — just because there’s opportunity, doesn’t mean you need to take it. Just because you can, doesn’t mean you should.

Jerod Morris: That’s a great, great lesson to learn.

In 2014, you learned that because you can provide a service for a client, doesn’t necessarily mean you should, as you explained. You also, I was reading, you got tired and kind of burnt out. You decided to scale back and go to more of a one-on-one marketing approach. Can you talk about that time period, what you learned for it, and how it’s helped you move forward?

Why Being a Self-Learner Has Helped Seth Accomplish What He’s Set Out to Do

Seth Spears: Yeah, so when I got started, it was just me — just freelancing, consulting and strategy, website design, SEO, social media, and all that stuff. Then I began to scale up and bring on a team. I basically had formed a little digital agency from about end of 2011, early 2012, until the beginning of 2014.

Like I said, I took on a couple clients who just weren’t a good fit and just some bad experiences. I had an employee or two that left, and I realized, “You know what? I don’t like the managing the employees. I don’t like offering all these different services.” I was offering so many different services to clients based on whatever they wanted. Then either the on-staff employees that I had would handle that, myself, or I would contract out some of it — just whatever the client wanted.

Then I realized, “Just because I can offer something, doesn’t mean I should offer it. Maybe it’s time to look at what I’m good at, what I really enjoy, and focus on those things.” And that’s what I did. I really narrowed the focus as far as specifically to the consulting and strategy side, just to work with digital entrepreneurs, online business owners. Specifically to help them figure out what they needed and only work with those.

I stopped offering all the other services, like the done-for-you social media and SEO work and some of the website design, although we still do a little of that. But I really narrowed the focus down and only began offering just those services that I thought that I was the best at and enjoyed the most.

Jerod Morris: What does your business look like now? Because you have Spears Marketing where you’re doing client work, and then you also are obviously with Wellness Mama as well, where the blog and lots of digital products there. There’s really two sides to the business right now, right?

Seth Spears: Yeah, so Katie and I have a partnership there as far as she handles all the content, and I handle all the strategy and everything, the technical side of everything. They’re two completely separate businesses. But yeah, that’s strictly a passion play. She loves to help people on the side and tries to help as many people as possible.

That was another one of those accidental businesses that was nothing more than a hobby, that grew, and that I basically use WellnessMama.com as a testing ground for client work. Like, “Hmm, I think this might work. Let’s try this.” Or, “Let’s try this new technology.” Or, “How about we try this with social media, SEO, or whatever.” It just so happened it worked really well.

Again, we were in the right place at the right time for it, but at the same time, there was a lot of work and effort that went in to it. A lot of content created and a lot of strategy. We’ve been strategic with it as well, but it was definitely one of those accidental things and not something that we set out to say, “Hey, let’s create a business there.”

Jerod Morris: But you know it’s funny how often that’ll happen. You have a main business, and then you have maybe a sandbox that you’re kind of ‘playing in.’ You’re trying stuff out, and eventually there’s kind of, “Whoa, there’s an audience here. I’ve created digital products, and there’s a real business here.” I’ve had that happen to me, too. It’s funny how that happens.

The Importance of Focusing on What You’re Good At (and Where There Is Demand)

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. It is very funny how that transpires. There are two schools of thought here. Some people say that you should just do what you love and the money’s going to follow, but I disagree with that. I think that, if there’s no demand for what you love, then the money’s not going to follow. You might enjoy it, but you’re going to be broke. Then eventually you’re going to hate it because you can’t support yourself.

I think you should focus on what you’re good at and where there’s demand for, and then you’ll learn to like something. If you’re that good at it and it’s bringing in money, you’ll learn to like it enough to do it. But having a side project that you enjoy and not even trying to use that as a business, or trying to monetize it necessarily, but just dabbling in that sandbox to play and just because it’s a passion project, I think that’s a good thing. It takes you away from the day-to-day and helps the creativity juices to flow.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. Let’s fast forward to now. What is the one word you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today? What would that word be?

How to Evolve and Enjoy the Journey of Taking the Next Step That Makes Sense (Even When There’s Pain Points)

Seth Spears: ‘Evolving.’

Jerod Morris: I like it. Where do you want to evolve to?

Seth Spears: I don’t know. I think the journey over the past several years has just been flying by the seat of our pants. It’s never been planned out to say, “I’m here. I want to be here.” There’s been elements as far as short-term goals. “Hey, I want this much traffic, this many subscribers, or maybe even make this much income per month.”

But as far as the long-term, five, 10 years down the road, I think the Internet is constantly changing so much. It’s very hard to set those long-term objectives just because there’s so much flux and volatility, especially when it comes to Google, Facebook, and everything.

Jerod Morris: Well, hey, that’s part of your story — not necessarily knowing where you’re going to go but just taking the next step that makes sense.

Seth Spears: And trying to enjoy the journey as much as possible, which I’m not that good at all the time, but I’m working on it.

Jerod Morris: What is your biggest recurring pain point as a digital entrepreneur? What sometimes doesn’t allow you to enjoy the journey as much as you’d want to?

Seth Spears: Seeing dips in traffic and not understanding why. A couple of years ago, I felt like I had Google figured out. I can rank pretty much any website, you know, “We put out this type of content. We promote it here. We do this and this and this, and it works.”

Now, I feel like their algorithms have gotten so very specific, and it’s not a one size fits all. There’s so many variables that, for different clients, it’s a lot harder just to get content to rank than it used it be. So trying to figure out that whole game, it’s a never-ending process. I’d say, currently, that’d be one of my biggest pain points.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. What element of your work gives you the most satisfaction on a daily basis? Not necessarily the outcome, seeing X, Y, Z success, but what part of the actual work gives you the most satisfaction?

Why Seth Thinks It All Comes Back to the Freedom to Work When You Want

Seth Spears: I think it goes back to our conversation earlier as far as the time freedom. This might not be the answer you’re looking for, but just realizing I can work a whole lot right now, work 60 hours this week, and then next week I can take off and only work 10 hours. Is that the answer you’re looking for, sort of?

Jerod Morris: Yeah, sure. Because to me, that’s the kind of thing that, in the moment, keeps you motivated to work right now. It may not be that you necessarily love researching SEO in this very moment, but because of what it allows you to do later, I think that’s definitely a fair answer to that question.

Seth Spears: Yeah, exactly. I think the other side of it, I like seeing progress made. I like being able to do something and see the outcome from it. If I put in a whole bunch of effort and I spend, say, an hour crafting an email, either for myself or for a client, and then see the outcome of that — see the open rates increase and the click throughs based on that — I really enjoy that side of it as well. Even though I’m not a copywriter per se, but just seeing you put in the effort, you put in the input, and then the output is positive.

Jerod Morris: By the way, I just want to commend you on your use of the phrase ‘crafting an email’ as opposed to just writing an email. It truly is crafting it when you’re trying to write something that’s good that will drive an action that will be enjoyed. It really is crafting. I appreciated that turn of phrase right there.

Seth Spears: Very much so. And that really is an art and a science. It’s funny how trying to get out of your own head and just write I’ve always said I’m a better editor than I am a writer. I’m a good writer, too — or I feel like I am — but it takes me longer to do that. I’d rather take something that someone has already created and tweak it to make it that much better. I feel like my strengths are better there as far as not creating something completely from scratch, but taking bits and pieces from here and here and here, and making something so much better, 10x-ing it or more.

Jerod Morris: Yeah. So let’s open up your toolbox. What is the one technology tool that contributes the most to your success as a digital entrepreneur?

The Not-So-Secret Tools in Seth’s Toolbox

Seth Spears: The one technology tool. There’s so many. Obviously, WordPress is huge because everything’s online, so using that for website build-outs. Google Apps would obviously be another one, and Dropbox. I’d say those would be the three that I couldn’t live without. There’s lots of other ones as well, like smaller ones like Evernote.

Jerod Morris: Is there one kind of off-the-radar one that people might not be familiar with that’s maybe a newer one that you found to be especially useful?

Seth Spears: As far as a general one, not that I can think of right now, but an app that I really like as far as just content creators one of the things that I focus on over the past year or so is website speed and really focusing in on and proving site speed because that’s something that Google really looks at. And images are a big, big issue. Because people upload massive images, and that takes longer to load, especially if you’re on mobile.

There’s an app called ImageOptim. You can download it for Mac and I think PC as well. Basically, you just drag your images into this little app that sits in your dock and it smushes it down. It reduces the size of it without any loss of quality, so it gets rid of all the underlying data that is added to an image when you take a picture. So when you upload that to your site, it’s going to be quite a bit smaller. In turn, it’s going to improve your site speed.

Jerod Morris: Nice. What is the non-technology tool that contributes the most to your success?

Why Seth Loves Unplugging to Enjoy the Great Outdoors

Seth Spears: Taking time away from the computer, from the phone, from being inside, and just getting outdoors. I’m a bit outdoors guy, so I love hunting, camping, and all that fun stuff, skiing. Getting away so you can take a mental break and just get in touch with nature and relax.

Then, also, reading something good from an actual physical book. I think there’s something about holding a physical book in your hands and sitting back and just reading, and not just reading on your phone, on the computer or Kindle, or whatever.

Jerod Morris: Yeah, I agree with that. Earlier I asked you for the one word that you would use to sum up the status of your business as it stands today. You said evolving. When we talk again in a year, what would you want that one word to be?

Why Seth Wants to Evolve into a Place of Consistency

Seth Spears: ‘Consistency.’ Consistency is something that most people struggle with — whether that’s business consistency, personal consistency, your personal life, business life, whatever. I think I’m pretty consistent, but that evolution of things it’s hard to stay really consistent — whether it’s your making X number of dollars per month, you have X number of clients a month, or X number of traffic, whatever.

Trying to make things so that they’re more consistent across all those so that you don’t have the flux of being up or down with clients, revenue, and traffic, et cetera.

Jerod Morris: I have a few rapid fire questions for you to close out. Are you ready for these?

Seth Spears: Yeah, let’s do it.

The One Book Seth Would Insist You Read

Jerod Morris: If you could have every person who will ever work with you or for you read one book — and obviously, they would read it as a physical book — what would it be?

Seth Spears: I’m going to go with Brewing Up a Business by Sam Calagione, the founder of Dogfish Head.

Jerod Morris: Oh nice.

Seth Spears: It’s a phenomenal business book about entrepreneurship, business, and marketing from somebody who’s crazy passionate about what he does. I read this years ago and just really connected with his story, his work ethic, and the way he sees the world and business in general.

Jerod Morris: Also a great brand of beer, too.

Seth Spears: Yes it is.

Seth’s Ideal 30-Minute Skype Call to Discuss His Business

Jerod Morris: Okay, if you could have a 30-minute Skype call to discuss your business with anyone tomorrow, who would it be?

Seth Spears: I’m going to go with Jeff Bezos from Amazon. I think he would have a lot of insights just where things are going and heading digitally just because he has been such a visionary over the years and Amazon has gotten so big and all the other things he’s doing as well. I think having a little call with him would definitely be interesting.

Jerod Morris: What would you ask him? What would be your first question?

Seth Spears: Did you envision where Amazon is now, or was it just a natural progression? That would be one thing.

Jerod Morris: I would love to hear that answer.

Seth Spears: And where do you see things going over the next five years?

Jerod Morris: Very good.

The One Email Newsletter Seth Can’t Do Without

Jerod Morris: What is the one email newsletter that you can’t do without?

Seth Spears: I’ve pretty much unsubscribed from almost every newsletter just because email is such … I get too much. But the one I’m really digging right now is Brian Dean from Backlinko.com. He’s got a really good one. He focuses on SEO and some social media, but I feel like he’s got his finger on the pulse of the search game right now. I really enjoy his. He’s a great writer, too.

Jerod Morris: Brian Dean, Backlinko.com?

Seth Spears: Yup. Backlinko.com.

Jerod Morris: Okay.

The Non-Book Piece of Art That’s Had the Biggest Influence on Seth as a Digital Entrepreneur

Jerod Morris: What non-book piece of art had the biggest influence on you as a digital entrepreneur?

Seth Spears: I am very passionate about quality. I always look for the best. If it’s not incredible quality, craftsmanship, I really don’t care for it. So I’m going to say Saddleback Leather Company. I came across them five or six years ago, and I read something about them. They were just the small little company in Texas that created these amazing leather bags.

Over the years, I’ve purchased some, and the quality’s just amazing. They’ve built up an incredible following. They’re pricey, but their story is fascinating and just their focus on quality and not skimping on quality based on price or whatever — so I would say one of their bags.

Jerod Morris: What productivity hack has had the biggest impact on your ability to get more meaningful work done?

Seth’s Biggest Productivity Hack for Doing Meaningful Work

Seth Spears: I think kind of like I mentioned earlier, just getting outside and disconnecting from technology for a while. Probably over the past month or so, I’ve been somewhat burnt out just because I worked so much over the past several months. The past four weeks or so, I’ve basically kind of taken a little time off and I’ve gotten outside.

I’ve been hunting a lot. I’ve been camping, taking my kids and just hiking and stuff. Just getting away, reconnecting with nature, getting away from technology, and realizing there’s a lot more out there to see and do and not just being in front of a computer all the time. That’s really tough to do as an online entrepreneur.

Jerod Morris: Yeah it is.

How to Get in Touch with Seth

Jerod Morris: And finally, what is the single best way for someone inspired by today’s discussion to get in touch with you?

Seth Spears: Either Twitter, my handle’s @SpearsMarketing, or on my website SpearsMarketing.com/Contact.

Jerod Morris: Excellent. Well, Seth, this has been a great conversation. Appreciate you being on here and lending your insight to us.

Seth Spears: Thanks, Jerod. Great talking to you as well.

Jerod Morris: Yea, take care.

Seth Spears: You too.

Jerod Morris: My thanks to Seth Spears for taking the time to join us on this episode of The Digital Entrepreneur. Also, as always, thank you to Caroline, Will, and Toby for helping to make this episode a reality.

And thank you for joining us. I always appreciate your attention here to The Digital Entrepreneur, and I’d love to hear from you. Shoot me a Tweet @JerodMorris. Let me know your thoughts on this episode, guest ideas that you have, future topics you’d love to see us cover — always love hearing what you think of the show.

All right, thank you, and I will talk to you next week on another brand-new episode of The Digital Entrepreneur.