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The 2 Reasons People DonÛªt Click on Your Buttons Û_ And How to Overcome Them

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Buttons are cute, and theyÛªre charming. You canÛªt be scared of a button.

These are the words of Joanna Wiebe, whose delightful presentation on buttons at Authority Intensive resonated with data-backed usefulness.
And sheÛªs right. No one is scared of a button. Yet, people choose to not click on your call-to-action buttons all the time. Costing you conversions. Costing you money.
Why?
And what can you do about it?
I invited Joanna, Conversion Copywriter for Copy Hackers, to be the guest on this weekÛªs episode of The Lede so she can answer these two questions for you Û_
Because Joanna has the answers and the data to back them up.
In this episode, Joanna and I discuss all of the following and more:

How I misspoke right up front ÛÓ because getting a button clicked is not the same as a conversion (Luckily Joanna has your back and corrected me)
Why you need to think of your visitors as non-thinking lizards
The impact that choosing a button color outside of the brand palette can have ÛÓ and, relatedly, if clients ever balk at choosing colors outside their palette (even when they know it works)
Why you should think of your buttons as closed doors
The most common anxieties that keep people from clicking
How to phrase button copy to reduce anxiety (and why ÛÏJoinÛ is better than ÛÏSign upÛ)
Why you need to think of ÛÏcalls to actionÛ as, instead, ÛÏcalls to valueÛ

And I recommend you scroll through JoannaÛªs slides from her presentation while you listen. You will find them below, right before the transcript.
Listen to The Lede Û_
To listen, you can either hit the flash audio player below, or browse the links to find your preferred format Û_

React to The Lede Û_
As always, we appreciate your reaction to episodes of The Lede and feedback about how weÛªre doing.
Send me a tweet with your thoughts anytime: @JerodMorris.
And please tell us the most important point you took away from this latest episode. Do so by joining the discussion over at Google-Plus.
The Show Notes

Copyhackers.com ÛÓ JoannaÛªs website
@CopyHackers ÛÓ Follow Joanna on Twitter
7 Proven Secrets of High-Converting Checkouts ÛÓ by Joanna Wiebe
6 Proven Ways to Boost the Conversion Rates of Your Call-to-Action Buttons ÛÓ by Joanna Wiebe
13 Takeaways From Authority Intensity ÛÓ by Kerry Jones

The Transcript
Click here to read the transcript
Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.
The Lede Podcast: The 2 Reasons People DonÛªt Click on Your Buttons Û_ And How to Overcome Them
Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media. IÛªm your host, Jerod Morris.
Last week on The Lede I interviewed Tom Martin, whose panel presentation at Authority Intensive drew rave reviews. This week my guest is Joanna Wiebe of Copy Hackers, another Authority Intensive presenter who drew nothing but praise and plaudits for her presentation, which was a power hour instructing attendees how to create better buttons.
And if JoannaÛªs name sounds familiar, it should. She has written two incredibly useful posts about conversion for Copyblogger. Each is linked up in the show notes for you.
HereÛªs my interview with Joanna. Enjoy, and learn.
There are many reasons why people donÛªt convert
Jerod: Hey, Joanna. Welcome to The Lede. IÛªve got to say it was really a pleasure getting to meet you and listen to you speak at Authority Intensive in Denver. So just thank you for coming on here today and sharing your expertise with our listeners.
Joanna Wiebe: Well, thank you. I had a great time at the Authority Intensive event, and I really liked your talk too. I thought it was fantastic. I loved the stories you told.
Jerod: Well, thank you. Thank you. I appreciate that.
But letÛªs talk about your presentation which, as I mentioned in our intro, was one of the absolute hits of the entire week. And I think it was just because of how you broke it down, and how simple and clear you made this idea of conversion. You told us that there are really two reasons why people donÛªt convert: friction and anxiety.
So in the 15 or so minutes we have here, letÛªs break each one of those down and give listeners one or two actual tips they can take with them to reduce friction and help their visitors overcome anxiety. WeÛªll start with friction.
Joanna: Okay. Can I just start withÛ_
Jerod: Oh yeah, go.
Joanna: Sorry, Jerod. I just wanted to say two reasons why people donÛªt click your button are friction and anxiety, but there are bigger reasons why people donÛªt convert. Why people donÛªt act on the conversion thatÛªs happening in their head is the friction and anxiety at the point of the button. I just wanted to clear that up because people will be like, ÛÏthereÛªs way more to conversion than that!Û
Jerod: Okay, good. And thatÛªs a great clarification, because youÛªre right. Your presentation was on buttons specifically.
Joanna: Right. Yeah.
Jerod: And you wrote a great column on buttons as well for Copyblogger, which we will link up in the notes.
Joanna: Cool.
Think of your visitors as non-thinking lizards
Jerod: So when we talk about friction with buttons, apparently to reduce friction we all need to start thinking like lizards?
Joanna: (Giggles) Yes. We need to think of our visitors not as thinking visitors.
When youÛªre working on the button if you think of a visitor as a visitor, then a human visitor has all sorts of intellectual capacity. They can figure things out. They are very thoughtful and rational. When we use the word ÛÏvisitor,Û theyÛªre not lacking any sort of intelligence. We give people a lot of credit, and we think of a visitor as, often times, ourselves. Human beings. WeÛªre smart. We can figure out what a gray button that says ÛÏSubmitÛ is supposed to do. Who canÛªt figure that out? Visitors can.
But we have to really speak to that lizard brain, that part of our brain that is so old. ItÛªs the thing thatÛªs really keeping us from making mistakes in life and hurting ourselves. It doesnÛªt react to words. It reacts to a stimulus, and things that will attract it or will repel it.
So thatÛªs really what weÛªre talking about. When weÛªre talking about a button, if we can design a button for a lizard brain, which means really ÛÏwould a lizard look at this? Would it touch this? Would it be scared of this? Would it know to go near this?Û That kind of thing. If we can do that instead of thinking of them as thinking, usually intelligent human beings with big, bold, wonderful brains, then we can get closer to designing the button in such a way that itÛªs more likely to get clicked. ItÛªs more likely that your lizard brain will tell your bigger brain and your actions that ÛÏItÛªs okay, we can move ahead with this button.Û Or ÛÏhey, I like this button, letÛªs touch it!Û That kind of stuff.
Jerod: So whatÛªs one way, then, one example of a way, that we can make a button thatÛªs going to attract that lizard brain?
Joanna: I gave a couple of examples in the presentation. And one of the obvious ones: People talk a lot about button color text, and people roll their eyes when you talk about them. And IÛªve done it too. Early on in my career I definitely did. Because you think a color isnÛªt persuasive ÛÓ except in certain cultural situations it can be ÛÓ but by and large, for most people, the color orange is not more persuasive than the color blue. So why would we do a button color test? What could we possibly learn?
But when youÛªre designing for a lizard, lizards are attracted to things that are out of place. Things that look like something to look at ÛÓ like the bright, shiny object kind of thing. So when youÛªre going to design a button for that lizard Û_
There was one in particular that I noted in the presentation for Acuity Scheduling, where we ran three variations of a button with the control included there. So there was a control button on a plans and pricing page for a solution called Acuity Scheduling. The control versus variation B, which was a button color that was within the brand colors for Acuity Scheduling, and variation C, which was meant to speak to that lizard brain. And we made that one outside of the brand color, so different from the palette, and that was the point with making it really stand out.
We made it orange. Not because we believe in the big orange button, necessarily, although orange does tend to do quite well. But it does well not because itÛªs orange, but rather because itÛªs different from everything around it. ItÛªs something that stands out. And a lizard, your lizard brain, can notice it and not have to think or wade through information to try to find the right button to click.
So we tested variations B and C against the control on the plans and pricing page. There were three buttons on each variation. The plans and pricing page usually has three, four, five columns where you see whatÛªs inside each plan, and then the button, and you try to get people to click the button, obviously, to get them to sign up. So in the control we had three black buttons. In variation B we had a black button, a green button, and another black button, and that was all within the color palette for Acuity Scheduling. Variation C had a black button, an orange button, and a black button.
We saw a pretty good lift. I think it was just over 80 percent on the variation B and the green button, so it was different from just all three black. ThatÛªs a good thing. Already the lizard brain can say, ÛÏOkay, somethingÛªs different here, IÛªll look at that.Û But when we made it orange we got, I think it was, 94 percent lift.
Jerod: Wow.
Joanna: And thatÛªs click-through lift. Not conversion lift. Click-through on that orange button. And so it beat the green button, and it totally beat the black button.
And really, thatÛªs what itÛªs about: designing for a brain that isnÛªt trying to think. ItÛªs just trying to do without doing the wrong thing.
Do clients balk at choosing colors outside their palette?
Jerod: So speaking of friction Û_ do you ever get friction from designers when you suggest, ÛÏHey, letÛªs choose a color thatÛªs outside of the palette?Û
Joanna: You know, there is an increasing number of designers who are focused on conversion. So we see a lot more designers who are soaking it up, ÛÏGive me more.Û But give them data too, which is what weÛªre really focused on doing. Because you canÛªt just say, ÛÏMake it different,Û and theyÛªre like, ÛÏOh, okay.Û
We see a lot of friction when it comes time to talk to a brand manager or a creative director. People who might sometimes not be that open to doing things for conversion purposes if it compromises in some way, or complicates, the brand. Which I guess we see a lot in copywriting too, right? Everybody wants to pitch a long-form sales page to sell something, and good luck getting that by the average brand manager or creative director, right? And so on, and so forth.
Jerod: Yeah. But I assume if you just show them the data, like you just said, ÛÏHey, 94 perent more clicks,Û thatÛªs typically enough, right, to get that sort of reaction? I would hope so.
Joanna: Yeah. YouÛªd think, but if you go to acuityscheduling.com ÛÓ and I wave my finger at them all the time ÛÓ he hasnÛªt actually changed the button.
Jerod: Oh my!
Joanna: The button is still in the control. I know. And IÛªm like, ÛÏBut you saw the data!Û
Jerod: Yeah.
Joanna: ItÛªs there! You saw the test happening! You looked at it! You know itÛªs all statistically significant, you know there is nothing actually wrong with the data. ItÛªs perfect. ItÛªs saying, ÛÏYou can get almost twice as many people to sign up or to get started on signing up for your solution if you just change it to orange.Û But itÛªs still black. What? I donÛªt know.
ItÛªs always going to be ÛÓ I think itÛªs a matter of repetition. People listening to this now will be like, ÛÏOh yeah, sure, fine.Û But they have to hear it 30 times from 30 different people before they actually do it.
Jerod: Okay. Maybe there is some anxiety there, why theyÛªre not changing that. Which leads us into our next idea here.
Why you should think of your buttons like closed doors
Jerod: We talk about anxiety, and you use the analogy of a button being like a closed door.
So you talked here about how you want your button to stand out. You want to appeal to that lizard brain that is going to be attracted to it, maybe even scared of it, but they see it. And then once theyÛªre there, now you have to reduce that anxiety so that they feel welcome enough, comfortable enough, to open up the door, right?
Joanna: Exactly.
Jerod: How do you do that?
Joanna: ItÛªs really addressing ÛÓ at the point of clicking to convert ÛÓ those seemingly minor obstacles that are getting in the way of moving forward.
If you think of a button as a closed door instead, you can start to see Û_ because buttons are cute, and theyÛªre charming, like the word ÛÏbutton.Û You canÛªt be scared of a button. Who would feel anxiety with a button, right? Especially where we can all go around saying, ÛÏWe all use the web. Everybody is familiar with it: you just click a button when youÛªre ready to buy. You just click the button.Û
But you donÛªt just click the button, right, or else we wouldnÛªt see the lift that we do. We would just keep seeing, ÛÏOh, weÛªre not actually affecting a change. People are having an easy time clicking the button.Û But theyÛªre not.
So if we think of it as a closed door, now you can start to put yourself in the position where youÛªre like, ÛÏHow do I feel when IÛªm about to open a closed door?Û Especially a closed door in a building that IÛªm not familiar with. So itÛªs one thing if itÛªs your house. YouÛªre likely to just open and close the door unless you know itÛªs the bathroom, or something like that. But in someone elseÛªs house, or if youÛªre in a neighborhood, a strange neighborhood, and youÛªre looking for your friendÛªs house. YouÛªre looking for a certain door but you donÛªt know which one is right. You can start to feel a bit of those anxieties, right?
ÛÏIf I open that door, whatÛªs on the other side? If I go inside will it close behind me and IÛªll get lost inside?Û I canÛªt see whatÛªs in there until I actually open the door. Do I care enough about whatÛªs inside to put myself through the potential trauma of opening this door only to find that thereÛªs a lion behind it, or other crazy things that we might ÛÓ I mean, nobody thinks thereÛªs a lion on the other side of a button or of a closed door. But the bad things that are unknown that generate this fear and risk inside of us, which of course turn the lizard brain off too. Where youÛªre like, ÛÏOkay, forget it. IÛªm not going, itÛªs not worth it.Û
But if we can anticipate those kinds of small anxieties about opening a door, and do things to knock those anxieties down a bit, just really neutralize and reduce them, then we can get people to open.
So obviously I work a lot with tech startups, like software as a service. So there is a lot of signing up for things online. And when youÛªre signing up for a free trial, what are the anxieties that a person might feel when theyÛªre about to click? They like your solution, they like everything about it. What are some anxieties that they might feel, though, about moving forward with this so-called free trial:

Is it really free?
Do I have to put my credit card information in here?
How many pages of forms am I going to have to fill out before I can actually start using this thing?
Do I have to invite other people to help me start using it somehow?
Do I have to sign in with Facebook, only to find out that itÛªs now been posted to Facebook?

What are some fears that people have? And all you have to really do is build those into the button copy, or position those neutralizer things that counter those fears and anxieties. Position those around the button. We see some pretty good lift when we do that.
How to word button copy to reduce anxiety
Jerod: And you want to use wording that suggests, too, that they have to do less work, right?
Joanna: Yeah.
Jerod: Let me give you an example. And tell me if I did this right. I was creating a button, actually, today for a post thatÛªs going to go out, and it included a call to action button for signing up for Authority. And I had JoannaÛªs voice whispering in my headÛ_.
Joanna: (Laughs)
Jerod: Û_ I did, because when I first wrote the button I said, ÛÏSign up,Û meaning ÛÏYou have to go, you have to do something.Û And I changed it to ÛÏJoin the Authority communityÛ instead. So is that better? Is the second wording better than the first, in your mind? Is that going to reduce anxiety, or do I need to go change it again?
Joanna: I would believe that would perform better in an A/B test, yes. Because the initial one, like you say, thereÛªs a sense of ÛÏWill my life get harder once I click this button?Û And we want them to believe their life will get better, right?

WeÛªre always trying to sell people a better version of themselves, and that doesnÛªt stop at the point of your button.

So ÛÏsign up.Û What does that suggest to people? To me it suggests, ÛÏOh crap, IÛªve got work to do.Û What does ÛÏsign upÛ mean? Plus thereÛªs that fear of commitment. Am I ready to sign up? I know I like it, but do I love it? Am I actually, seriously into this solution so much that IÛªm ready to ÛÏsign up?Û I mean, ÛÏsignÛ is a scary word, right? To sign is like ÛÏsign your life away.Û We have some anxieties associated with that word.
But ÛÏjoin?Û Perhaps there is a little anxiety there if youÛªre not sure if you want to join. But itÛªs reducing any anxieties about possibly being alone because youÛªre joining, of course, that community. So I think thatÛªs a good thing. Does ÛÏjoinÛ suggest work?
You might want to add a click trigger on there that says ÛÏItÛªs one click to join,Û or something to really help people understand that itÛªs actually not going to make their life harder. ItÛªs going to be really fast and easy. And a lot of people know this in their head, but they donÛªt put it on the page. You know, ÛÏOh yeah, itÛªs going to be really easy.Û So people will know to join. But if you just add a little click trigger that says what they can expect that will happen next, that can push people a little further.
And if you get another ten sign-ups a day, or people clicking a day, that really starts to build up. Just because you did a little more on the page to kind of neutralize those anxieties.
Jerod: Perfect. I like that. Thank you for the impromptu analysis there.
Joanna: Sure! I hope it helped.
Why you need to think of ÛÏcalls to actionÛ as ÛÏcalls to valueÛ
Jerod: So my final question about this idea of anxiety. Kerry Jones of CopyPress actually wrote a really terrific column, ÛÏ13 Take-Aways From Authority Intensive,Û and one of her take-aways was a quote by you, which kind of explains this idea that weÛªve just been talking about, which is:

Think of a call to action as a call to value.

Can you just elaborate on that difference, and maybe one way that listeners can put that into effect on their buttons?
Joanna: Sure.
So a call to action is like ÛÓ you tell people what they should do. What they should act on, and that they should move forward. But not why they should move forward, right? ThatÛªs a call to action. A call to value is a reminder of why it is that you want to move forward at all.
People know what a button is, right? They know to click the button to proceed. And thatÛªs not to say that you shouldnÛªt use words like ÛÏclick hereÛ and ÛÏjoinÛ or words like that. Still use an action word or a verb in there. But what is the ultimate value that theyÛªre looking for from you?
Nobody wants to do the act. They want to do the act in order to get the thing.
So if you can instead lead with the thing that they want, the great outcome, that value that theyÛªre looking for, and really amplify the value instead of the act of proceeding, then weÛªve seen at least that you can get more people to move forward. And thatÛªs really because youÛªre just reminding them of what they came here for in the first place.
We had one button test that we ran where ÛÓ IÛªm trying to remember the control. But anyway, the button that won was worded ÛÏEnd my scheduling hassles.Û I think the control was something like ÛÏSign up now.Û ItÛªs in the presentation deck, which I know is going to be shared. So ÛÏEnd my scheduling hasslesÛ was the ultimate value that people wanted to get out of this solution they were thinking of using.
And so using that kind of language, like the goal theyÛªre looking for and not the thing theyÛªre about to do right this exact second, but the thing that theyÛªre going to get out of it. If you can do that, or at least test it, weÛªve seen really good results from that call to value over the call to action.
Stress benefits in your buttons
Jerod: ThatÛªs the old idea of stress the benefits, right?
Joanna: Yeah. And do it in your button. People just donÛªt think about buttons enough, unfortunately. I know I obviously said that a lot at the presentation, but they donÛªt. So if you can, then I think you can get a lot more out of it. Everything you know about copy writing can still be applied to your button. Nothing really changes here, right? This is a critical point on your page. DonÛªt forget all your copy writing tricks when it comes time to write that button.
Jerod: Perfect. And that is a wonderful point to end on. Joanna, I feel like we could talk about this for hours because thereÛªs so much more to unpack, and so many tips. But thank you.
Joanna: Sure.
Jerod: Now, what is the best place for people to connect with you online? Obviously @copyhackers on Twitter, the site copyhackers.com. Are there any other places people can or should go to get all of your wonderful information?
Joanna: Those are really it. IÛªm quite active on Twitter, and definitely on my blog too. So come over and check that out, and everything there. We do a slide share. WeÛªll post it on the blog. You can sign up for the newsletter when youÛªre on copyhackers.com, and of course, weÛªll send you all sorts of cool stuff that way too. So thatÛªs how to get me.
Jerod: Perfect. And hopefully, hint hint, we can get another one of your posts up on Copyblogger soon, becauseÛ_
Joanna: Yes!
Jerod: Û_ the two that you posted have performed so well, and people absolutely love them because theyÛªre full of great tips.
Joanna: Cool! ThatÛªs awesome. Well, thank you! IÛªm working on it.
Jerod: Okay, good. Then we will chat about that later.
Joanna: Okay.
Jerod: Well Joanna, thank you very much. It was wonderful meeting with you, wonderful talking with you, and we will talk soon.
Joanna: Yeah! Thanks a lot. Thanks for having me, and for letting me talk at Authority Intensive.
Jerod: Anytime.
Thank you for listening to The Lede. And my thanks again to Joanna, for taking the time to join me. If youÛªre enjoying these episodes and finding them useful, please consider giving The Lede a rating and a review on ITunes. Also consider sharing it with a friend. We appreciate any way that you can help us spread the word. And donÛªt forget, The Lede is on Stitcher now. Just go to copyblogger.com/stitcher to find our page and add The Lede to your playlist.
Thanks for tuning in. WeÛªll talk to you soon, everybody.
# # #

*Credits: Both the intro (ÛÏBridge to NowhereÛ by Sam Roberts Band) and outro songs (ÛÏDown in the ValleyÛ by The Head and the Heart) are graciously provided by express written consent from the rights owners.
About the authorJerod MorrisJerod Morris is the Director of Content for Copyblogger Media. Get more from him on Twitter, Google+, or at JerodMorris.com.

The post The 2 Reasons People DonÛªt Click on Your Buttons Û_ And How to Overcome Them appeared first on Copyblogger.

Chase Customers, Not Clicks

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You want to be a broke-ass blogger, donÛªt you?
No!
Good gracious, of course you donÛªt. (At least I hope not.)
But if the first metric you look at is page views, not sales ÛÓ i.e. clicks, not customers ÛÓ then youÛªre well on your way to broke-ass bloggerdom.
WhatÛªs sad is that a lot of of online business owners do pay more attention to vanity stats than fundamental business metrics. So if you can shift your mindset, youÛªll be ahead of the curve.
Fortunately, Tom Martin is here on this weekÛªs episode of The Lede with straight talk that every online business owner will benefit from hearing, understanding, and acting on.
In this episode, we discuss a variety of topics that Tom spoke about last week at Authority Intensive, including:

Has Tom recovered yet from Authority Intensive 2014?
Are Tom and Brian Clark still friends?
Why a click is a sign of interest, not a sign of intent
How your audience will make you famous, but your prospects will make you rich (and make your spouse happy)
Why does Tom think he caught hell for the ÛÏrichÛ comment?
Why you have to give before you ask to receive
What ÛÏsecond-clickÛ content is, what it does, and how to use it
Why time is the only finite resource in the marketing toolbox

And, finally Û_ are Aggies and Longhorns actually more alike than they care to admit?
Listen to The Lede Û_
To listen, you can either hit the flash audio player below, or browse the links to find your preferred format Û_

Converse Digital ÛÓ TomÛªs website
The Invisible Sale ÛÓ TomÛªs book
@TomMartin ÛÓ TomÛªs Twitter
Rundown of all Authority 2014 Recap Posts

And this little bone thrown TomÛªs way, so he can remember the better times Û_
The Transcript
Click here to read the transcript
Please note that this transcript has been lightly edited for clarity and grammar.
The Lede Podcast: Chase Customers, Not Clicks
Jerod Morris: Welcome back to The Lede, a podcast about content marketing by Copyblogger Media. IÛªm your host, Jerod Morris.
This week the entire Copyblogger family is in recovery mode. Why? Because last week we hosted our first-ever conference, Authority Intensive: A content marketing experience that spanned three days in Denver, Colorado. Seth Godin and Darren Rouse provided riveting keynotes about the importance of being unique and creating content that matters. Ann Handley, Lee Odden, Bryan Eisenberg, and so many others also took the stage to deliver insight and impact.
Included among those others was this weekÛªs guest, Tom Martin, who delivered one of the most memorable of the panel presentations by making a simple point that empowered everyone in the audience to do what they really want to do. I interviewed Tom so those of you who werenÛªt in attendance at this yearÛªs conference could taste the flavor of his presentation.
And yes: I got him to address those rumors of a rift between he and Brian Clark.
Last week two monumental events occurred: The 2014 NFL draft in New York City, and the inaugural Authority Intensive conference in Denver, hosted by Copyblogger. With that in mind, consider the following quotes: ÛÏSharp and strong, electric, power of prospects over popularity.Û You might think those words were uttered during the draft. YouÛªd be wrong. They were actually tweeted by Authority Intensive attendees during the presentation of our guest this week on The Lede, Tom Martin, author of the book ÛÏThe Invisible SaleÛ and a man who thinks slides are for chumps and that chasing clicks, not customers, is the strategy of broke-ass fools.
Has Tom recovered yet from Authority Intensive 2014?
Tom, thank you for coming on The Lede so we can set people straight on this essential idea of the importance of chasing customers, not clicks. How are you, and have you recovered from the altitude yet?
Tom Martin: I am great. I recovered pleasantly. And I never called anybody a chump, and it was broke-ass bloggers Û_
Jerod: Ah! Broke-ass bloggers.
Tom: Û_ was the official quote.
Jerod: ThatÛªs right. I should have known that.
Tom: No, but I was going to say is my mind has finally decompressed a little from all of the really great speakers and the content, and just the ideas. I have literally digital page after digital page of notes in my iPad. So between that, and the altitude, and the after parties, IÛªm finally back to normal.
Jerod: ThatÛªs good. Yeah. It takes a few days, thatÛªs for sure.
Tom: Yes.
Are Tom and Brian Clark still friends?
Jerod: Getting back to normal myself here. Okay. So first question; this is clearly the most important one. You and Brian Clark caused quite a commotion when your Texas/Texas A&M rivalry spilled into the Q and A portion of your presentation. The rancor was palpable. Have you two patched things up?
Tom: Well, you know, as I tell Brian every time we talk: Jealousy is a terrible emotion, and IÛªm sorry that he went to the wrong school, but you know, he gets over it after awhile, and we left as friends, we hugged, we hugged it out at the end. It was great. We shared a beer. As Brian and I laughed about afterwards, the folks that thought there was rancor just donÛªt understand how men display love for one another.
Jerod: No, that is true. That is true.
A click is a sign of interest, not a sign of intent.
Jerod: Okay. So letÛªs get on to some serious topics here, because your presentation was, I mean, among many memorable presentations from the week, your presentation stood out. And I think a major part of that was just the simplicity of your message, which you delivered so well in the 10 minutes that you had. So I pulled a few quotes out from your presentation, and IÛªm going to read them, and if you would, just kind of give the listeners a brief description of what you meant so that they can get a taste of what they missed while you were talking.
So weÛªll start with the most germane: ÛÏA click is a sign of interest, not a sign of intent. DonÛªt chase the click.Û
Tom: Well, what I meant by that is that when you look at how most people are determining what content to write, where to spend their time, et cetera, the thing they go back to is their Google Analytics. And they look for whatÛªs getting the most clicks, whatÛªs driving me the most attention and traffic.
Unfortunately though, if that is going to then turn itself into profit in the form of sales or new clients and customers, there has to actually be intent behind that click. And quite often thereÛªs not.
When you look in and you actually look at your conversion versus your click data, and you can track that all the way through, all the way down to an individual tweet if you want, what you start to see is that every click isnÛªt always symbolic of interest. ItÛªs just ÛÏHey, youÛªre giving me really great free information and so IÛªm happy to take that from you, but thatÛªs where the relationship ends. I really donÛªt have any desire to hire you or to do business with you beyond, I just really like free stuff.Û
And so the point I was trying to make was that if you get caught up in that, you end up writing a lot for your audience, which is great and makes you famous, but you donÛªt write enough for your prospects, which are the people that are going to make you rich. Because they actually do have intent.
And so it really can start to have all kinds of massive strategic implications that we went on to talk about throughout the talk.
Your audience will make you famous, your prospects will make you rich
Jerod: Which leads into this quote: ÛÏYour audience will make you famous, your prospects will make you rich. Me, I like rich. My wife likes rich.Û
Tom: She does! I mean, you knowÛ_. No. I actually caught Hell for that one. That was kind of funny.
Jerod: I thought it was a great quote.
Tom: You know, I always tell people IÛªm not looking to, necessarily, own a G5 or anything. But this isnÛªt a hobby. IÛªm not in this for shits and giggles. I do what I do, the content that I create, to drive highly qualified leads to my companyÛªs website at conversedigital.com, and/or to the bookÛªs website, so that that will convert and become new clients for me, and that is the only reason I do it.
I mean sure, I like to write. I like to express myself. But you know, IÛªm doing it with an end and the content is simply a means to that end, and you have to keep a laser focus on that. Because it gets really easy to ÛÓ and IÛªm not above this, it happens to me as well, I think it happens to all of us ÛÓ you have to really keep your ego in check because it gets really easy to go, ÛÏOh, look! I wrote that, and everybody loved it, IÛªm going to go write more like that!Û
Jerod: Mmm-mmm.
Tom: And it feels good to see a bunch of people retweet your stuff or to click on your stuff, or to share it. WeÛªre all at our base emotionally driven and egocentric. And so that feels good, but man, that just can get you into all kinds of trouble. You really have to keep yourself focused on:

Why am I doing it?
What kind of content drives conversions?
Where does my customer come from?
What do they want to hear versus just ÛÏWhere does my traffic come from?Û

Why does Tom think he caught Hell for the ÛÏrichÛ comment?
Jerod: And why did you catch Hell for the rich comment? Because ÛÓ I mean, going through the tweets, that sentiment was actually the one that was retweeted the most. And I think one of the big takeaways from the conference is that youÛªre going to generate long-term value both for yourself and for your audience when youÛªre creating value. You put them first. So itÛªs not mutually exclusive to be useful, to be audience-focused, and to make money.
Tom: Well, you always have the social media tree-huggers who just think itÛªs wrong to actually want to make money with this stuff. And the Hell that I caught was in the private channels, and not a ton, but a few people saying, ÛÏOh, you know, itÛªs not all about the money, itÛªs about engagement, and you know, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda.Û
But IÛªve never been secretive about that. I mean, IÛªm a marketer. I grew up in the ad agency business. My job was to direct marketing campaigns that drive business to our clients, and I guess I bring that same mantra and mindset into the social space. And actually, I think one of the things that, on the flip side of that, that I most like is that when I did get a chance to talk to people after the talk and at the party afterwards, and so forth, I was actually pleasantly surprised at the reaction in that so many people did say, ÛÏI really loved what you had to say.Û It touched an emotional point with them.
Because I was, frankly, very nervous up on the stage because I knew the message I was delivering can be, historically has been, a polarizing message in the social space because you have this whole constituency of folks who just somehow think itÛªs bad to try to use social media to make money. And sometimes they can be vocal. But luckily, that particular crowd ÛÓ a testament to all of yÛªall over at Copyblogger ÛÓ they were there for serious reasons. They were a serious crowd, they were there to learn how to use content and social and digital to try business. So it was well received within the Authority crowd, most certainly.
You have to give before you ask to receive
Jerod: Do you think itÛªs really just kind of a matter of order? And what I mean by that is that if you focus on the money first, you know, itÛªs not going to come. And thatÛªs what people have a problem with. But when you focus on the audience value first, then making money not only is okay to think about, but itÛªll come.
Tom: Yeah, and I think that to be successful in this space you have to give before youÛªre going to receive. I mean, itÛªs just that simple. If thatÛªs giving advice, if thatÛªs giving free product. ThatÛªs been a pretty common marketing ploy. ThatÛªs not a content marketing innovation. Brands have been giving free samples to induce you to test drive, or buy, or sample their product for as long as marketingÛªs been in existence.

We all like to claim that thatÛªs a content marketing innovation, but itÛªs really not. ItÛªs an advertising innovation thatÛªs just been repurposed.

I think you have to have a commitment. I think that comes through. I think if youÛªre strictly mercenary and itÛªs all about the money what I think happens is, it leads you to do things where you ask for the purchase too early in the process. You jump the gun. And when you do that people run away from you. They push away.
I preach that social media marketing is really about seduction. Your goal with your content and your social approach is to be a seductress, is to be wanted. And to be asked to do business versus asking someone to do business with you.
ThatÛªs why people who are really successfully using content and social, when you talk to them about their close rates on their leads, their close rates are huge. And in fact, theyÛªll tell you they donÛªt really sell anymore. They just close. By the time theyÛªre talking to somebody, that personÛªs pretty much of the mind they want to do business with them. ItÛªs just a matter of getting a few details out of the way, agreeing on price, whatever it might be in terms, and then off it goes.
So I think if youÛªre out there really trying to be that seductress by really putting some value out there, you really can drive a lot of good business back your direction. Again, as long as you keep focused on not just what makes you popular, but whatÛªs going to actually be profitable.
What is ÛÏsecond-clickÛ content?

Jerod: That goes in with another quote that I want to ask you about, too, from your presentation, which is, ÛÏfollow the click prevents writing second-click content.Û Can you explain what you meant by that?
Tom: IÛªm a big proponent of a theory I call ÛÏpropinquity marketing,Û which is very guest-post oriented. So youÛªre pushing content out to other peopleÛªs platform that then drives folks back to your platform through the inclusion of anchor text.
Well, the best anchor text is always what I call ÛÏsecond-clickÛ content. ItÛªs content that you donÛªt write with the idea that itÛªs going to win first place on Google. ItÛªs not necessarily going to be a highly-clicked piece of content on Twitter or Facebook. In fact, you donÛªt even necessarily write it to push it out. ItÛªs simply content thatÛªs designed to be that second click someone arrives at in your website, either from a guest post or from an anchor link within your own posts, that the second-click content is where youÛªre really trying to push someone down that funnel, where youÛªre really trying to say, ÛÏHey, are you just interested? Or is there some actual intent here? Do you really want to come down this rabbit hole with me?Û And youÛªre trying to push that down.
And that tends to be very niche-y, very specific, written for very, very tightly defined markets. And itÛªs there to move people one step further in the sales process, to get them to convert, to get them to reveal some readily identifiable information about themselves so that you can begin to profile them, develop a conversation and a relationship. So itÛªs just a different kind of content, because itÛªs not going to be a list post or seven reasons why you absolutely have to do something next year. ItÛªs just really super focused, intelligent, helpful, knowledgeable type of content.
Why time is the only finite resource in the marketing toolbox
Jerod: And one more. ÛÏTime is the only finite resource in your marketing toolbox.Û
Tom: Yeah. If you think about it, you can always get more money. You can always get more talent. You can go hire people that are better than you or more innovative, whatever. But time is 24 hours. ThatÛªs it. ThatÛªs all there is.
And unless you invent some space machine that alters that time/space continuum, youÛªve got 24 hours in a day to get things done. And some portion of that youÛªre going to have to give to your family, or your significant others, or whatever. And so what you do do with the rest of it, how you spend that time, is, I believe, a huge determinant of success and failure.
If you look at some of the most successful people, not only in our space but in other spaces, and you talk to them, one of the key underlying themes youÛªre going to find is that those folks are incredibly well disciplined with time. They build processes, theyÛªre disciplined about sticking to those processes, and thatÛªs what allows them to be more prolific, produce more content, be more places, and get more done than the average bear.
Jerod: Yeah. ThatÛªs a big focus for me, personally, is getting better with time. Do you have any tips or advice, things that youÛªve learned that really help you dial in your time when you have that time to work?
Tom: I would say two things.
One is if you can find a way to work, content creation letÛªs say, as a scheduled meeting with yourself every week, day, whatever your sequence is, and really stick to it, I find that that really helps a lot.
The other is you just have to get real with yourself. I used to say all the time that I donÛªt have enough time to write more blog posts, I donÛªt have enough time to write more content, but then last year all of a sudden I found time to write a book. I didnÛªt magically increase the amount of time I had available to me. My family did take a little hit. My kids, my wife agreed to me being locked in a room as opposed to with them a little more often.
But at the end of the day what it came down to was a conscious decision about ÛÓ IÛªm going to watch less football and IÛªm going to write more content. And that really is what it comes down to. You just have to make that conscious agreement with yourself that you probably do waste away a lot of your time doing things that are of some value, but you could be doing more valuable things with them. And if youÛªll just commit, even if itÛªs for short periods of time, you know, sprint for a short period, that can make an enormous difference.
I mean, in six months of sprinting I was able to write a book. That has enormous implications on my life and my business. Now I donÛªt have to do that as much because I did it last year. So thatÛªs what I mean. I think really focus on prioritizing, even if itÛªs just for short periods of time. Really prioritizing against a goal and you can then accomplish a lot more.
Jerod: Now I hope youÛªll forgive me for pointing out the obvious here, but it seems somewhat coincidental that you locked yourself in a room and stopped watching so much football the same year the Longhorns had no draftable NFL players. Any connection there?
Tom: (Chuckling) You knowÛ_
Jerod: (Chuckling) You left that wide open.
Tom: I have no comment. It was a young team.
Jerod: (Laughing)
Tom: It was a young team, it was the rebuilding year. You know, we have to let other people have some of the glory, you know. Yeah. It was not a great year to be a Longhorn football fan this year. But you know, hey, StrongÛªs there now. So weÛªre going to win strong.
Jerod: Yeah.
Tom: IÛªm going to get me an orange bracelet. ItÛªs going to be ÛÏWin Strong.Û ItÛªs going to be burnt orange. IÛªm going to make a killing.
Jerod: Mmm-hmm.
Tom: IÛªll put a landing site up using ÛÓ IÛªm going to use my New Rainmaker software or something Û_
Jerod: Yes.
Tom: Û_ to put a landing site together, to sell lots of these. You had to go there, didnÛªt you?
Jerod: See, you know what, thoughÛ_.
Tom: Did you get a bonus from Brian for doing that?
Jerod: (Laughs) IÛªm going to ask for one.
Tom: Is that what this is all about? Is that what this is all about?
Jerod: (Chuckling) No, you know, you just made me realize that I just wasted a good Indiana basketball season to write a book because they were so terrible last year. I could have stopped watching so many games and written a book.
Tom: How long has it been since Indiana had a good basketball season?
Jerod: Well, two years. We were #1 for awhile two years ago, butÛ_
Tom: So you couldÛªve written two books, and maybe even an article!
Jerod: Yeah. (Laughs)
Tom: (Laughs)
Jerod: Yes indeed. All right.
Tom: Yeah, man.
Are Aggies and Longhorns actually more alike than they care to admit?
Jerod: This has been awesome. Let me ask you one final question here, as we close. The only two folks who took the stage last week without slides were you and Brian. Now was this, perhaps, subtle proof that Aggies and Longhorns are more alike than they care to admit?
Tom: Well, I think it just proves that Brian and I are the only ones dumb enough or lazy enough to not actually create slides. Yeah. I actually made a conscious choice not to do it. I was taught that if youÛªre a good speaker, you should be able to make a point without a PowerPoint. And I was glad to see that that worked. As for Brian, I just ÛÓ you know, he was too busy trying to get his little Britney Spears mic to work. So that probably distracted him from any slides.
Jerod: I would like to do a future episode with you, talking about presentations. Because weÛªre going to do some content on Copyblogger about that at some point, so hopefully we can bring you on for another episode then and talk about your preparation process there.
Tom: Yeah, IÛªd love that.
Jerod: So just to close, the book. The Invisible Sale. WhereÛªs the best place for everybody to get that? Because I know in the aftermath of your presentation there was just a stream of folks on Twitter who were running to get that book. So where can people get it?
Tom: Probably the easiest is amazon.com, or you can go to theinvisiblesale.com and not only get the book, but you can register for the newsletter where once a week I give one actionable tip, on Sundays, that you can apply Monday to do a better job of prospecting.
Jerod: Perfect. And any upcoming speaking engagements coming up?
Tom: Yeah, my next oneÛªs going to be in Turks and Caicos if anybody wants to join me. Nice little place. And then IÛªll be doing some tourism summits this summer, Esto and DMAI, before heading out to Content Marketing World in September.
Jerod: Ah. I will see you there.
Tom: Oh, good.
Jerod: IÛªll be at Content Marketing World. ThatÛªll be fun.
Tom: Excellent. Well, maybe weÛªll go get a Browns game.
Jerod: Yes! Yeah, we can go watch Johnny.
Tom: (Chuckles)
Jerod: (Chuckles) All right, Tom. Thanks a lot for your time, and it was really, really great to meet you this week, and I hope to see you soon.
Tom: Thanks for having me. I really appreciate it.
Jerod: All right. Take care.
Jerod: Thank you for listening to this episode of The Lede. If youÛªre enjoying these episodes, please consider giving the show a rating or a review on iTunes. And donÛªt forget, The Lede is now on Stitcher, so you can listen to us there too. Just go to copyblogger.com/stitcher.
My thanks again to Tom Martin for joining me. Look for a few more episodes like this in the future where I interview speakers from Authority Intensive. If you missed the conference, you definitely wonÛªt want to miss these episodes. Talk to you soon, everybody.
# # #

The post Chase Customers, Not Clicks appeared first on Copyblogger.

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